Robert Carr Alien Autopsy Discussion

The recent film released by Ray Santilli has caused a great increase in interest in the so-called Roswell Crash, however, there are many who believe it will eventually be damaging to the credibility of the field. But stories of such autopsies have been circulating for years among UFO researchers and perhaps now is a good time to review previous claims to see how they might relate (or not relate as the case may be).

"The Roswell Incident" by Charles Berlitz and William L. Moore is credited with being the first major work on the 1947 crash, which had been dismissed by most as a weather balloon as had been reported by the military. This book was based to a large degree on research by Stanton Friedman and was published in 1980. It was some eight years earlier that Robert Spencer Carr announced to the world that he had evidence that the U.S. Government had autopsied the bodies of aliens captured in a crash in the southwest in early in 1948. I first became aware of his theories in 1972 when a program was aired on a Washington, DC radio station featuring two hours of audio from a UFO Conference that had taken place in Tampa, Florida early that year. I recorded that show, along with a one hour follow up panel discussion with Major Donald Keyhoe, and recently transcribed the portion of the tape that involved Carr's comments. I would be the first to admit that it is impossible to capture the nuances of speech in a simple transcription. Since I have attempted to transcribe it verbatim, there are sections that end in mid-sentence, and it may seem at times to be rambling. But the overall information is an accurate representation of the taped comments and many may find it of interest.

I regret that I did not write down more information on the program, as the name of the moderator is unknown to me at this time. Having worked as a News Announcer in the past, I would suspect that he had attended this conference and taped the proceedings for use on the air. As is usually the case, I'm sure he was given a set time slot to fill and had to edit the many hours of raw tape to fit. For that reason I am not convinced that the entire Carr statement is included, but the tale is an interesting one nonetheless.

Again, one must keep in mind that the Roswell Incident was not an issue in 1972, and Carr never connects the autopsy he describes with that alleged crash. I would also note up front that the autopsy, and the creature described, are vastly different than the one shown in the Santilli film. But with that in mind, there are similarities, and the differences could have been caused by attempting to create a coherent story from a few bits of information that he had been given. Indeed, an attempt by the radio reporter to verify Carr's statement failed. I don't believe that this statement proves anything, one way or the other, regarding the Santilli film. The creatures described by Carr also do not fit the descriptions given by others involved with the Roswell incident, which may cause some to dismiss it completely. However, I find it interesting to see how the issue came to light long before the Roswell Crash became a matter of investigation and interest.

For those who are not familiar with Carr, he was a Special Advisor to NICAP and also served as a Director of Educational Research for Walt Disney Studios. He also served with the Army Orientation Service and produced educational films for the State Department.

[Transcription begins]

Moderator- It was Professor Carr who sent shock waves through the Pentagon and the Air Force on October 14th, when he accused the Air Force of not telling the truth about Flying Saucers. At a news conference in Tampa, Florida, Professor Carr said he had information that the Air Force had two flying saucers and the bodies of twelve (12) spacemen on ice in a refrigerated building at Wright Patterson Field in Dayton, Ohio.

At the Flying Saucer symposium Professor Carr talked for an hour about what he calls the "worst kept secret in the world." The discovery in February, 1948 of two flying saucers in northwestern New Mexico, near the town of Aztec.

It is known throughout the academic world, the medical world, it is known throughout the Air Force, and above all it is known throughout the CIA, ah, that the Air Intelligence at Wright Patterson Field has in its possession a spacecraft, thirty-one (31) feet in diameter, and it is entirely undamaged, except for a hole...small hole broken in the plastic dome...the transparent plastic dome that covered the cockpit. And because of this accident in space, the twelve small human beings....ah....died suddenly of decompression, in the purely mortal way that our...that the Russian astronauts perished last year in a similar accident of decompression during re-entry. They were not shot down by our fighter planes, they suffered an operational loss.

However, in this particular case, it was very fortunate that our alert radar net in the western states had the UFO on its screen. In fact, three radar stations were tracking an unidentified object at immense altitude and traveling at unbelievable speed when it stopped ...fluttered...went out of control...and fell, circling toward the earth. Because three radar stations were locked on it, they were able to triangulate the point at which it reached earth. That point was three miles west of the small town of Aztec, New Mexico, in the northern part of the state near the Colorado line.

At that time I owned and operated a ranch in the high mountains of northern New Mexico. It happened in my neighborhood.

All available law enforcement officers were rushed to the scene, and planes were flown from the nearest Air Force Base, which is Edwards Air Force Base in the Mojave Desert. And, as they landed there was a silvery gleaming disc shaped spacecraft standing on a tripod landing gear. Apparently it made an automatic landing after its occupants had died. And, as the local sheriffs approached with drawn guns (oh, you can be sure the guns were drawn....let anything new appear, and the guns are drawn) .they surrounded the space craft and peered into the cockpit and there, slumped over their instruments, motionless, were twelve small men.

The Air Force arrived, and due to their ingenuity (it was quite ingenious, but I won't go into the technical details) they managed to get the door open and the medical officers said that the bodies were...ah...well, the bodies were still limp and warm. They had been dead only a short time. They were put aboard a hospital plane and flown to the nearest large mortuary, which is at Edwards Air Force Base, where they have (as do all large military establishments) a large refrigerated morgue. After all, a very large base devoted to death would need a morgue. The City of Tampa has a refrigerated morgue for overnight visitors who can't find hotel accommodations (audience laughter).

Edwards Air Force Base received this in February, 1948. Now that was at of the worst periods of the cold war. The President was notified, but the President didn't come. No one knew quite what to do. The bodies were carefully preserved in cryonic (sp?) suspension, which is not as the Air Force spokesman on the television program yesterday in ridiculing and abusing me, said that "Bob Carr says little green men are being kept in the frozen food locker". You see, you just change a few words, and you can convert the story of the century into a bit of idiocy. First of all, they weren't green. They were fair skinned. All were males. They were between three and four feet in height, three and a half being about the average. All had light hair, differing shades of light hair, but on the brownish/yellow side. All had blue eyes. All had perfect teeth, without any dental work. All were superb physical specimens, with null asymmetrical development. Dressed in American clothes they could pass un-noticed on the streets of Tampa as small men or as children.

Now, it was decided...(Carr pauses)

Which do you want to hear about first? The really important news of what our leading metallurgists, electronics experts, and aeronautical engineers were able to find out about the spacecraft itself, or do you want to hear about the bodies.

First let's have a vote. How many of you want to hear about the construction and content of the spacecraft itself....(pauses to take note of raised hands)...Now, how many of you will not rest easy until you hear about the autopsy.....(crowd laughter)...this is by far a majority. And frankly, it's human. Who wants to hear about a giant solenoid, when you can hear about an autopsy.

One body was selected for autopsy by a carefully screen group of government physicians. Six performed the autopsy. It was photographed, motion pictures were made. You may be assured that it was done in an operating theater, under many watchful eyes. And, as our unfortunate little visitor from far away was dismembered and disemboweled, and his organs were laid out and identified, he was found to have the same organs that a human being has, and in about the same place. He was human. The blood type was human. Genes and chromosomes would match up with those of an Earth woman. Either we are their lost colony or they are our lost cousins. Biologically, the chances of utterly unrelated life developing across the aching immensities of interstellar space, and coming out with two absolutely identical species...the odds are like....well, it's like rolling thirty-seven (37) sevens in a row in a crap game, it just couldn't happen. No, we are somehow related.

They came here, probably, because they too are oxygen breathers, and water drinkers. If they had been ammonia breathing turtles, they could have gone to Jupiter or some congenial place. But, no, they were like ourselves, so they sought out our planet. Undoubtedly, there has been an unbroken link going back a long time.

Everything was quite normal until the celebrated brain surgeon got out his horrid little saw and sawed open the skull, and laid bare the right hemisphere of the brain, and then the six assembled surgeons gasped because they realized they were looking upon something that no human eyes had ever before beheld. There, on the body of a vigorous young man, estimated to be thirty (30) years of age in Earth time, could have been a small Olympic athlete, there in his skull was the brain of a human being several hundred years old. The surgeons said..the brain specialists said that never had they seen the surface of a brain so deeply, and so intricately convoluted. And as you all know, the convolutions of the brain are an indication, an infallible indication, of both the age of the brain and the state of its intellectual development. A feeble minded person of any age has an almost smooth brain surface. A new born baby has a smooth brain surface. But, as age and intellectual development occur, the convolutions become more pronounced...these are little folds and've seen them...ah...and they had never seen so highly convoluted a brain. And if the same biological standards apply to their planet, as they apply to this, there was a man several hundred years old who had been spared the infirmities of age, and had never known senility. What a gift this would be if they could tell us how they do it. Ponce DeLeon and his fountain of youth. If they could share their medical secrets, and other hygienic secrets with us...what a gift this would be to the human race. How much more amazing than the weapons I must tell you about, or the means of propulsion that the Russians at this moment doing everything they can to try and capture...would be the gift of life to the human race. This is what the Air Force is striking aside every day by armed attacks on Unidentified Flying Objects, which have done nothing hostile toward the United States, except possibly to fail to answer the recognition signal of the the right idiom.

Major Donald E. Keyhoe in his latest book, Aliens From Space, documents over one thousand instances where fighter plans have been scrambled to attach harmless UFOs with the most deadly weapons that we have developed, simply to try and shoot one down. They have never succeeded. Certain pilots during debriefing sessions...shaking...ashen faced...have told their commanding officers that they got within gun range...they opened up with four cannon...not one shell ever struck the skin of the UFO. Apparently they are surrounded by a powerful force field of electromagnetic emissions which can ...ah... is probably intended to protect them from meteorites, which of course are very dangerous, but will certainly make bullets curve enough to miss them. Think what that secret would be worth.

This great age of the beautiful young man has profound psychic significance as well. Think what an opportunity it would be to develop the psychic develop culture.. To develop literature, history, and how little space travel would mean to a race whose life span was several times longer than our life span. Ladies and gentlemen, I am an old man...a retired professor. I have spent my life in the pursuit, however feeble and limping, the pursuit of truth. And I can tell you that the central tragedy of the human race on this planet is not the curse of war, horrible as that is. It is not the burden of poverty, inexcusable as that is on a rich planet. It is not the grief and pain of disease, which is merely a measure of our ignorance because our scientists are making valiant efforts to overcome disease. No, the central tragedy of human life is so common place that most of us never face it. It is the tragic brevity of human life. A man or woman just about learns to do his or her job well, and we retire them. They live a little longer and get a few glimpses of understanding, of comprehension, of psychic insight, and we bury them. The life is over long before a hundred years. A one hundred year old person is quite a curiosity, and is usually quite feeble. Or, as a Pennsylvania Dutch farmer once said to me, in a very pithy statement, which is much more eloquent than my plea, " So slow we get smart, and so quick we get old." That is the tragedy of human life, and that is one of the secrets that our friends from space...that is one of the benefits they might bring us in this 20th century. If we would only stop shooting at them, and let them land in peace at a designated safe zone in the southeastern United States...southwestern United States, at a certain part of New Mexico, where there are no military installations for many miles...would be plainly designated as a safe landing zone. This is OPERATION LURE, and I want to tell you that in the entire 25 years that we have been shooting at them, there is not one authenticated case of a UFO intentionally harming a human being. Imaging what patience, and what forbearance, for them to have been fired upon and chased, and repulsed in their efforts to be friendly and not once to have harmed a human being.

Let us prepare our minds, then, by banishing fear. Let us put aside all boogie men, and silly talk of little green men and bug eyed monsters. And further more, those who talk that way, let us gently correct them. They're doing a very great disservice to our country, especially to the children. A little child called me up in the middle of the night last night: "Is it true we are being invaded from Mars?" That's cruel to children. There's nothing to be afraid of.

Now. We call also stop calling them UFOs. Because if anything in the sky has ever been fully identified, it is the so called Unidentified Flying Object. The Air Force has spent millions photographing them up close, studying them, measuring them, and have quite a collection of photographs, hundreds of feet of motion picture film, and all of this of course had to be withheld from the American people. Not through any sinister conspiracy, but for our own good. Because back in the days when this material evidence came into the possession of Air Intelligence...most of you are too young to remember....but we were in the worst days of the so called cold war. People here in Tampa were digging air raid shelters in their back yards. If a truck backfired school children dove under their desks thinking the Russians had attacked. And when the spacecraft itself with the twelve dead occupants was picked up, then of course the Central Intelligence Agency had to intervene. Up until that time it had been an Air Force problem, chasing spooks...chasing...well, chasing something. But when a foreign intrusion occurs, the appearance of the CIA on the scene is prima fascia evidence that the UFOs are real. Let me repeat, the CIA would never have taken over had there not been real UFOs from another world. How foreign can you get?

So they, in their wisdom, caused the Brookings institution in Washington to make a national survey predict what the effect on the national psychology would be if the President came on the air and calmly announced that "Ladies and gentlemen, these things you are seeing are real, they're from another world, they are piloted by intelligent small human beings like ourselves. There is nothing to be afraid of, and will everybody please stop shooting at them." The Brookings Institution replied that this must never be released, because the American people are teetering on the ragged edge of hysteria already. The nervousness...the tension over the cold war is so great that for the President to make such a statement give it sanction...would be too much. Too many people would go over the deep end.


(During questions Carr was asked if he saw the flying saucer that he claims to have crashed in northwestern New Mexico in 1948?)

I didn't get up to Farmington until after it had been removed. However, the population of Farmington has not calmed down yet, and I have seen on two occasions, along with five million other Americans, I've seen saucer shaped discs at high altitudes passing from cloud to cloud that were metallic/mechanical constructions. I have never been in the hanger at Wright Field because, an innocuous, non-entity of a little college professor like me could not possibly have the exalted security clearance necessary to go in. However, people with exalted security clearances do retire and they do get mellow and they do talk.

(On October 14th you mentioned "two" flying saucers. What about the second one?)

The second disc was found two weeks, two hundred miles south of Farmington, New Mexico. It was spotted by an air patrol, and when they landed they found it was and old wreck. The disc was half burned, and there were some charred, decayed, partly mummified bodies in there. It was of little scientific or biological use. It was, however, removed and is being kept at Wright Patterson Field. It's the second one, not nearly as interesting as the perfect one.

(Are there any other craft in captivity?)

There was a crash in Mexico. And investigators tried very hard to find what became of the material evidence. Apparently the CIA was so well organized in Mexico that they were able to remove the entire evidence from the State if Mexico to somewhere other than Wright Patterson Field. Wright Patterson Field is a sort of a cover for the second rate stuff. The really first rate stuff is somewhere in Virginia, at a location that even I have never been able to pinpoint.

(Carr was then asked if he had any idea as to where these saucers came from?

That's one of fact that's the first question that President Eisenhower asked when he flew to Edwards Air Force Base and put his hand on the captured UFO. He asked the assembled Generals, and scientists, "Where do they come from?" Not one had an idea. I have asked three astronomers and four astro-physicists the same question. This is the consensus...and it is also the consensus in the excellent selection of books out in the lobby....that the UFOs come from outside our solar system. There is no planet in our solar system rich enough to support the magnificent series of civilizations which is manufacturing and manning these craft and sending them. And, interstellar distances would pose no difficulty to craft that could travel at 95% of the speed of light.

(In conclusion, Professor Robert Carr repeated what he has said on October 14th, that the Air Force is not telling the truth about flying saucers. It does, said Carr, have two saucers and 12 preserved bodies at Wright Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio. Refusing to name names of those who fed him information about what is allegedly hidden in Building 18, Professor Carr cited three sources...First a high ranking Air Force Officer, who he says was aboard the cargo plane that brought the craft back from Edwards Air Force Base....A security guard at Wright Patt...and third, a biologist. According to Carr,)

He spent every winter in Florida, and it was an ongoing thing. He even had in his possession the biological section of the general report, which had been torn from the much larger was all ragged on the edge....and then there was the security guard who was on duty at Wright Patterson Field for some years. And, for some months of that time he was the head of the security detail on the hanger that...which concealed the evidence. By opening and shutting the door to admit groups of civilian scientists and medical men, he, as the man who had the key, had ample opportunity to look inside. And after he retired, and was a civilian, and realized that he had participated in history making events, and that no national security considerations were available, he mellowed up a little bit and talked, and told what he had seen. His sister is now trying to sell some snapshots he took.

Moderator- Carr and the sponsor of the UFO conference refused to disclose the name of the guard or his sister, but Professor Carr made the mistake of telling a San Francisco News Service the name of his source who lives in Canada. Thanks to a radio station in Ottawa and a student at Georgetown University in Washington, DC, the guard was identified as Arthur Bray (sp). He was contacted and asked if he was the security guard that Carr had quoted as a primary source for the flying saucer story at Wright Patterson....

Bray- "I did not serve at Wright Patterson Field. I have no first hand knowledge of the subject. So I don't know whether I can be of any help. "

Moderator- He admitted that he was aware of the controversy and had been following it in the press, but said that he was not the source for Carr's information)

Moderator- The same brick wall was struck when information was obtained from John Getter, a television reporter for AVCO Broadcasting in Cincinnati. Three year's before a personal friend had told him in strictest confidence that she had helped classify a flying saucer and several dead crewmen while serving as the executive secretary to the officer in charge of security at Wright Patterson AFB. The incident allegedly occurred at the end of the 1960's, during the waning days of Project Blue Book. When getter was asked to go back to see his old friend on the night of October 16th, she refused to repeat what she had told him earlier.

Getter- "She has been told, she says, that if she even discusses matters which came across her desk when she was in the employ of the Air Force that she could lose begin with she will lose her pension and so on and so forth, and after that they could end up prosecuting her." When Getter asked if she could tell him if they were on the right track, she said she couldn't even confirm that, however "I remember her words, here she said, I can't really say but, I would be very interested to know what you find out from other people'." When pressed further about the conversation, Getter said that he felt from the tone in her voice that the investigation was on the right track, but she is afraid to say so for fear of retaliation for breaking the silence.

[End Transcription]

If you have additional information regarding Professor Robert Carr, and his involvement in the field of UFOlogy, please let me know:

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